Engine conversion and gearing - new idea

[tcfengineering]

Hej, Jag bor i Sverige, men min Svenska ar myket daligt. Jag hoppas de ar OK for me skriva i Engelska !

 

I have just bought a TGB1314 this week, very exciting ! I want to put a diesel engine in it, and I have been doing the ratio calculations with lots of different gearbox and transfer box combinations. I  think I have found a combination which will work, but wondered if anyone has gone this route, or if you see any problems with this. 

 

There are a lot of gearboxes in America which have a very high overdrive ratio. I can get a kit to put a Landrover transfer box behind a NV4500 gearbox which is a 5 speed box with 0.73 5th gear and 1.003:1 in the transfer box. There is also a kit available to put a Mercedes OM606 onto the NV4500 gearbox. So this is my plan. I have done the sums and it will give me 100kmh with 3050rpm. This means I dont have to change the ring and pinions which will save a lot of money.

 

Does anyone see any problems with running the axles with this high an overdrive ratio ?

One thing I cant decide is weather I should use the OM605 or OM606, The 605 has 148hp and 280nm torque, and the 606 has 177hp and 330nm torque. Do you think that the axles will hold up to the power of the 606 ? It would be nice to have the extra power, and I actually think it might be more economical as it will be working less hard

 

The NV4500 comes in Chevy pickup trucks, so it also has a low first gear, It is very strong and reliable and cheap to buy in America. 

 

Does this sound like a good idea ?

 

Also, I think I am going to have plenty of questions when it comes to besiktning, registration and other things to sort out with Tranpsportstyrelsen, but I will save those for now. 

 

Tack for hjalpa

[Klas_B]

Hi, and welcome to this forum! And congrats to a nice vehicle!

 

Diesel conversion threads are always hot topics here. I guess Mercedes OM603 / OM605 / OM606 are the most common ones, but Izuzu 4 cyl turbodiesels are maybe the most convinient swap if you plan to stay with the 4 speed manual. Reliably and simple. Drove one a very nice TGB13 with that engine on Gotland recently, swap made by Clas1113 on this forum. But that 6x6 had TGB11 axle gearing and 37" tires... It did a bit over 100 km/h, but no engine noise! Axles will have no problems with whatever power or gearing you go for, they are pretty reliable.

 

When you dig into the issues rising to swap gearbox, you will notice that all enigne/gearbox/transfercase combos will be much longer than the Volvo stock items... The length restriction is set by the frame crossmember/vacuum tank just behind the transfer case. But with some cut and weld operations thats manageable. Prop shaft length between transfer case and 2:nd axle will suffer, but with some travel restrictors on the 2:nd axle you may have it work anyway. In front you may have clearance issues to the front axle fitting a 6 cyl engine with other trannies.

 

My initial suggestion to keep cost and rpm down is simply to use bigger tires. 37" fits well on standard rims, even 38.5" works well with some wider rims on a 6x6. I guess you need new rubber anyway? Swap to 38.5" will do the same work as the 0.73 5th gear and less axle rpms... Just my thougts.

 

I´m looking forward to get more comments from members that actuallly have done the diesel swap. I still havent...I will make a turbodiesel OM606 swap in the future, but different, very different...

 

Best regards

 

Klas

[Knudsen]

I also welcome you  , even though I myself am pretty new here. 

 

I have looked at Tremec T56 transmissions. Mainly because I have TGB 20 chassis which has the lowest geared differantial. But T56 has 0.50 overdrive.
With such an overdrive I can live with the relatively high first gear, coupled with the differential gear.
I have chosen a Toyota 1HD-T engine. ( 4.2 L straight-6 turbocharged diesel, direct injection. Output is 162 hp @ 3600 rpm 361 N·m of torque @ 1400 rpm. ) There can easily be adjusted / modified and withstand significantly more power.

 

First problem is that a T56 box is very expensive to obtain in Sweden. Maybe you have connections ? 

 

That's right foot that destroys driveline and error `40´ (The driver (head) who do not think - `40´ cm from the steering wheel.)   
But think about TGB has run the Dakar rally. The axles are stronger than many think.

 

Where aboutare you in Sweden. It would be fun to be within a reasonable distance so I can follow your project.

 

What the Forum here concerned, you will find plenty of skill. I still just learning as I mainly have been a Toyota man. 

 

I wish you all the best.   
Write and let us know what you think and possibly do. We are several who would follow. 

 

Knudsen

[Knudsen]

Hi igen.

 

I do not think.   

Linke til topic: Motoralternativ vid Dieselkonvertering av en TGB 11-13-20 

 

Just a hint that we also like to meet: Häng med till Island 2018 

 

Knudsen 

[tcfengineering]

Hej

 

I wont get my TGB until Tuesday, so I havent measured the engine transmission length to compare, but the OM606/NV4500 and landrover transfer case is around 1524mm from the front of the fan to the rear prop shaft output. I will measure up as soon as I get it and make more plans. 

 

If you do the calculations, even 38" tyres dont make enough difference compared to the overdrive gearbox. I was thinking about other american gearboxes with even higher overdrives, but I think that you wont like the first gear ratio at all, and also there arent adapters available for the right transfer cases. Also, I have a little concern that I dont want to overgear it. Mine is going to be a husbil, and I want it to have plenty of power to cruise at 95-100kmh and hold this speed up reasonable hills. I have had plenty of vehicles which were overgeared with big tyres and they ended up being horrible to drive. If I go up to 37" tyres, then 100kmh will be at 2750rpm, which should be right in the torque band of an OM606. This is a really good calculator for the ratios http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/calc/ratio_calc.html 

 

I have also found an adapter to put a Toyota HJ60 transfer case onto an NV4500. This has the outputs in the right place and also has a slightly better ratio than the landrover one. 

 

I run an engineering company in Britain, so actually doing the job wont be a problem for me and I have quite a bit of experience building offroaders and engine swaps, etc... I am going to be doing this conversion in the next couple of months, so I will keep this thread up to date. 

 

I live in the North of Sweden for 2 years now near Storuman

 

Thanks for your replies, I am sure I will have more questions to ask !

[tcfengineering]

Hej igen,

 

I have bought an engine today, OM606 turbo with a mechanical fuel pump. A quick question for someone who knows - An LT230 transfer box out of a Landrover is full time 4wd with a centre diff. Any reason why this wouldnt be OK in a TGB ?

 

I am still weighing up the options, but I am going more towards a 6 speed gearbox from a mercedes so that the flywheel/clutch is all standard. Then fitting an overdrive to the LT230 Transfer box. This way, the gear ratios will work out really great, it is quite a standard drive train, and the overall cost is quite low

 

Tack

Tim

[Fredrik L]

Hi

 

I dont know anything about the LT230 but i have a 606.962 with the 6 speed gearbox and and it´s a wonderful gearbox

[Klas_B]

Hi Tim,

 

I think a LT230 tranny would be a nice swap in a TGB. It has passenger drop, centre diff (with difflock) and front prop output shaft has much better bearings than the stock Volvo FD-51. I have scrapped a number of those.... The only issues would be transfercase length (flange to flange) compared to FD-51. But shortening front prop shaft is no big deal, right? I couldnt figure out if there is a speedo cable output or not on the LT230 on the crossectional view I manage to Google.

 

http://workshop-manuals.com/landrover/lt230t/transfer_box/description_and_operation/transfer_box_cross_section/

 

[Klas_B]

Hi again Tim!

 

Got second thougts about using a centre differential transferbox on a 6x6 vehicle.... Keep in mind that you will have the double ammount of traction (2 axles)  on the rear prop shaft output compared to the front output (only 1 axle). This means that the open centre diff will mainly put power to the front axle. On a 4x4 this is not a big deal since traction normally is same on both front and rear axle, but on a 6x6 this will be different. I suspect the rig will behave strange (front axle powered only) running with open center differential. I imagine you will get surprised driving it in slippery (winter) conditions. Just my thougts....

 

How is availability on LT230 in Sweden? I just got a bit interested in a similar swap for my 6x6 mud rig. It would mainly go with the centre diff locked...  Do you have an idea of what torque the LT230 is rated for?

 

Best

 

Klas

[tcfengineering]

Hej

 

Yes, this is my concern too with the LT230 that it will affect the driving experience with full time 4wd. I take it that all the TGB's are part time front wheel drive ?

 

Even though I am an englishman, I really dont like landrovers as they are mostly pretty unreliable. The LT230 however is one of the better things they made. They are very robust and can take a lot of power and you wont get too many problems with them. I have bought my engine in England and I will be buying everything else in the next few weeks and then sending a pallet over to Sweden. I will try and get everything I need in one go. The LT230's are very common and quite cheap in England, depends a bit on what ratio you want. I can buy one off a friend for just £50 - about 650 SEK.

 

I know that there are some people who have fitted the whole engine, gearbox and transfer box from a tdi landrover into a tgb. I wonder if anyone on this forum has any experience of how they drive, or were they in a 4x4 ?

[tcfengineering]

Just looked on Ashcroft transmission website, and you can get a kit for £95 - 1200 SEK - which converts the LT230 to part time 4wd. I think that I will fit it as standard and then if I dont like it, buy this kit and install it

[Pebl]

but are there any 230:s that have standard 1:1 gearing in High speed gear like the FD51 or do you have to convert it by using an "overdrive" gear kit from Ashcroft?

[becker]

LT 230 comes with many different ratios:

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/transfer-boxes/lt-230.html

 

Klas,

Buy a box from Ashcroft, cheaper then a used one in sweden... 

And I can´t find how much torque the LT230 can take, but then I google the answer is: "A lot"    

I guess that if you phone Ashcroft they will give you the answer.

 

In winter, and if the road is slippery I drive my LT230 (fitted to my Defender) with the center diff locked, works just fine.

Some more info: https://discoii.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/lt230-transfer-box.pdf

[tcfengineering]

At the moment, I am thinking of fitting a 1.2:1 transfer box which I can buy for £50. Then fit an overdrive to this which is around £1000. It is a very easy job to fit it, takes about 1 hour, they are pretty reliable and you can get spare parts no problem, and this will bring the transfer box ratio down to 0.846:1. This means that you can cruise at 100kph at well under 3000rpm which is what I am after. If I feel like it has loads of power, and it would take some higher gearing, then I can change the transfer box gearing to 1.003:1 and then you could cruise at 100kph at 2500rpm. Cost for this would be an additional £250

 

If anyone is after an LT230 fairly soon, I will have room on the pallet from England, so frakt would effectively cost nothing. I have lots of friends in England with landrover stuff, so let me know

 

Also, if anyone is after a lower cost conversion with OK gearing, I have a whole Landcruiser 4.0 straight 6 engine with gearbox and transfer box here in Sweden. It is a really nice running engine, and the ratios are 0.85 in 5th gear and 1:1 in the transfer box with the correct offsets. This is available cheaply if anyone is interested. 

[hoss]

TCF could you please link to the OM606 -> NV4500 -> LT230 kits please?

 

My conversion is here http://www.terrangbil.net/forum/index.php?/topic/11062-my-restoration-and-conversion-to-overland-camper/

I decided to stay with the Volvo transfer case and the MB Autobox.

[jesper r]

very interesting tread. will try to add some comments from my side. 

 

If you have the toyota set up why not use that ? to big and heavy ? 

 

In terms of LT230 transfer case it is important to remember that if you will use it on the road the volvo has a system that engage the front wheel drive at emergency braking to avoid rearwheel lockup... good or bad idea i will not judge here as it is a long story by itself however i think it is more important on a 11 car than on a 13´car because on the 6x6 it takes alot more to lock up the rear wheels that on a 4x4.. in that view i think the LT230 with permanent 4x4 is not a bad choice as you can disconnect this option. In terms of running "front" wheel drive in winter time my guess it will only be a benefit as the  motor is on top of front aksel . There is an option at ashcroft to ad an limited slip shaft to the center diff witch might cure that.

 

Tires. (is it spelled tires or tyres ?)

 

i follow this and other treads with interest as based on my kind of driving witch is honestly mostly done on tarmac and gravel roads i would like to use smaller diameter tires,based on that you have more options on tire type comfort price noise ect. Smaller tires also remove the need of a ladder to get in the car and make it more road stabile and reduce death wobble .. i would then keep a set of off road tires for using when going offroad.. 

 

Did you ever consider replacing the b30 with a modern gasoline motor ? this option is rarely considered but should give some benifits as-well

 

looking forward to see the end result. 

 

best regards 

Jesper

[tcfengineering]

Links to adapters :

 

OM606 to NV4500 http://www.transmissionadapters.com/Mercedes%20diesel.htm

OM606 to NV4500 http://www.4x4labs.com/products/diesel-conversions/

 

You can get an NV4500 to LT230 adapter from Advance Adapters in the USA, but also www.dieselconversion.com sell a nice one. 

 

I thought a lot about using the Toyota setup as I have it here. I was going to put a turbo on the engine and install it like this. I just want something a little bit newer with more potential for power for the future. The OM606 are such a great engine. I always wanted to build something with the OM606, so now I can ! Definitely nothing wrong with the Toyota engine though, they are known for being super reliable. 

 

Yes I was planning to remove the system which engages the front wheel under breaking. I want the whole setup to be as simple as possible. Also, the tyres are important to me too. I want to run 315/75 16 which are 35" high. Costs are really quite reasonable, you can get some nice tyres which will behave well on the road whilst still being OK for offroad. I am planning to use the TGB for expedition use, so a lot of the miles will be on the road or light offroad. 

 

I didnt even consider a petrol engine. The main reason for this is that I have never in all my life run a petrol car. I have always been around diesels with tractors, lorries, cars and offroaders, so I know how to fix them and for me they are very easy. When we are travelling, I will repair everything myself so this is really important. I am sure that there are good options for people with petrol though. 

[Knudsen]

Hi

I assume you have compared the torque curve at OM engine and the Toyota engine.
I also assume the OM engine is more willing to RPM and has its torque higher up.
The Toyota engine may use slightly more fuel. But there is potential for many more turbo hp.

Have you purchased the OM engine ?

If not, we may do some bartering.

I am a Toyota man. 

 

I am looking for an adapter from Toyota H engine to SAE 2   
That way I get a lot of different gearboxes to choose from.   
I am not sure what xfer but I think it will be Toyota.   
Same times you must continue to do what you know.

 

All the best for your build.

[Klas_B]

Hi again Tim,

 

sent you a PM regarding LT230 from UK...

[tcfengineering]

Hej Knudsen, 

 

I have already bought an OM engine so I am going down that road now. If my toyota engine, gearbox or transfer box is useful for you, I dont want a big price for it and I can split it if necessary. Let me know if you need any of it

 

Klas_B - I have emailed you about the LT230.

 

I will put up a build thread on here when I have all the parts so everyone can see the good bits and the bad bits (Hopefully not too many bad bits !) 

[tcfengineering]

Hej Knudsen, I need a mercedes flywheel, clutch and gearbox to go on the back of my OM606. I can buy them in the UK, but they want a big price. Wondered if you had any available, maybe we could do a deal for the toyota engine if you can source these. I would prefer a 6 speed box out of a c220 cdi if poss. 

 

Let me know

[Knudsen]

Hi tcfengineering

 

I need to see what it is. It will be in the new week. I do not think there is a 6 speed, or CDI box. Both engines are no electronics on the pump.

I am after a Toyota 1HD-FTE engine.

The one you have is an older 2H which is a good engine but 1HD-FTE is direct injection and four valves.
It will be renovated from scratch, to stricter standards for xxx Hp and xxxx Rpm.
The one I have will be moved a project.

 

 

[Knudsen]

Hi
Now I had taken some pictures of the OM engine and gearbox, I wrote about earlier.
There are also some Porche 928 parts I think. But it's a Mercedes gearbox.

 

I do not know much about the parts. But I think they have to buy for a reasonable price - whatever that is.

 

Knudsen

[tcfengineering]

Good evening, 

 

Sorry only just seen this info. I am pretty sure that those are the older type of gearboxes and as such wont survive behind the OM606. Thanks very much for putting the pics up though. I think I may have tracked down a later Sprinter gearbox from a CDI engine which I am told will do the job. It also has cable operated gear lever which I will get too so should make it easier to do the gear lever. Should find out tomorrow. 

 

Once I have the gearbox, then I have everything in the UK for the whole job and I can get it shipped over here. Exciting !

 

I have my TGB now as well, it was delivered two nights ago, I am very pleased with it, cant wait to get started on it. 

 

Thanks again for the pics